Yesterday , I watched a Ted talk by Ran Gavriel: “Why I stopped watching porn.” He gave an emotionally moving speech about the cultural influences and gender issues surrounding pornography. While I do feel his presentation lacks some solid research and statistical evidence, and he also generalizes quite a bit–I can resonate with his ideals and what he is trying to convey. I then came across a few comments attacking him for being a “man-vagina” (or, a feminist). This is not surprising, because I have encountered many people who are not aware of the constructions of gender and they tend to jump to conclusions. I decided to join the discussion, unwilling to let all the one-sided and anti-feminist comments dominate the comments section.
I, by chance or fate, have encountered anti-feminism in its most extreme manifestation. Initially, I was (naturally) a bit frustrated, because every time I come across someone who so blatantly hates on feminism, I think to myself: how can such people exist? There was really no point continuing the discussion, because there is nothing that can be agreed on between us. I decided to keep going, because I know these comments are being read, and I might just reach someone. In retrospect, I’m glad I kept going because at least I have attempt to balance the scale of the conversation by leaving a piece of myself there.
Here’s a transcript of the conversation that took place. It started with a comment by Alunogen Carnelian, and it evolved into a conversation between me and Celsian hyalophane. For the sake of organization, my comments are in bold, and are not indented. Also, I have left out some comments from others that have been inserted into our conversation.
Alunogen Carnelian
In all likelihood, this man-vagina suffers from some mental disorder. I would not be surprised, in the least, if someone told me he is gay. I have not watched the video in its entirety, but I can still challenge this white knight eunuch to debate me if he has the balls. He won’t. Because he knows he will get his ass kicked.
He should stick to licking women’s boots instead of spouting bullshit on youtube, and stupefying and corrupting others along with him.
Me: Some are his valid points are that sexual objectification exists in porn and it is unhealthy because they perpetuate negative stereotypes of sex and promote unhealthy sexual relationships with others and with self. Also, abuse and sexual exploitation and human trafficking exist in the pornographic industry. Having that said, I do feel that his argument is very one-sided. While I resonate with his ideals he doesn’t support them much with actual evidence and statistics. He generalizes too much and fails to address that there are sexual workers choose this profession for themselves and also as their form of free sexual expression and empowerment.
Celsian hyalophane
I give you credit for the latter part of your argument. About the former -
There is no such thing as ”objectification”. It is made-up feminist bullshit, that emanates from their contorted, delusional heads.
What is an object?
You walk into a shopping mall. You see a shirt. You can buy that shirt and have absolute control over it. The shirt is now under your authority. You can do whatever you want with it. You can wear it, you can tear it apart, you can burn it as well. The shirt did not/does not have any control, any authority.
The shirt is therefore an object.
When woman appear nude in the media, do men have any control whatsoever over them? Can they buy them? Can they do anything that they want with them?
No, they cannot!
Do the women not have absolute control over what they are doing? Yes, they do. They willingly, out of their own volition agreed to appear nude, in exchange for money. They chose to do so, because they have absolute authority over themselves. They are not under anyone’s control. Get it?
The nude women, therefore, are not objects. They have absolute control over themselves.
Objects do not have control. Objects do not have authority. Women do. The “objectification” claim is thus, horseshit.
There goes another retarded feminist argument out of the window. Do not fall for feminist stupidity.
Feminist falsehoods are dangerous, in spite of what one would think ought to be their obvious character as such, by reason of the psychological fact that you only require to repeat a lie often enough, provided you are uncontradicted, in order for the aforesaid lie to be received as established truth by the mass of mankind--
The Fraud of Feminism – Ernest Belfort Bax
Me: Sexual objectification does not mean, on an individual level, the women have no control over their body. Sexual objectification refers to the kind of representation women are subjected to in pornography, and also mainstream media-. Images of sexualized female body are everywhere to be “consumed” by the mind, as an “object’. It is true that we all have our individual will and women can choose not to be involved with porn–but that does not mean exploitation does not exist. What women (and men as well) do not have control over is the cultural imposition of sexualized body images of women with no regards to their personal identities.
Once again, the “objectification” does not mean the actual “physical” objectification of female bodies. It’s talking about the representation and images of the female body. Please understand this properly before you make any criticism.
And also, if you say such a thing about feminism–isn’t it the same way about patriarchy? Or anything, for that matter? Nothing is absolute, and anything that is not absolute can be challenged and put into a conversation.
“Celsian hyalophane Many types of porn are giving the impression”
Google – Femdom porn. Right now. The content will blow your mind.
It is much more prevalent than what you are referring to.You don’t see me whining about that, do you?
In addition, in femdom, you will find men, being urinated (peed) at, and eating the shit, the feces of women!
In addition, you will find men, licking women’s boots, and are serving women asslaves.
Again, it is much, much more prevalent than your porn.
In addition, women almost never do that even in the kind of porn you referred to! Not even remotely close to anything as degrading as what men are doing in femdom porn.
Do you see me whining about it?
Now, about your claim, do you know that it is human nature, that evolution designed it this way that - Man fucks - And woman gets fucked.
Do you know that, in any kind of, heterosexual porn, you will always find the man as the one fucking, and woman as the one being fucked. No, it is not “objectification”. Stop disseminating that bullshit. It is human nature!
Understand what that means?? It means if you are against man fucking a woman, you are against human nature, you are against evolution, you are against heterosexual sex.
Why are you against heterosexuality?
Think about this – If you were making heterosexual porn, what would you do? You will obviously make the man fuck the woman, won’t you? So if some mangina or a feminist calls you “sexist” and claims “objectification” bullshit, what would you say?
Stop listening to delirious “gender studies” frauds as the one in the video. He is doing this for money and fame. He knows that it translates to fame for him to appeal to the emotions of the populace. So he does precisely that.
[The following comment is directed at me] Understand something before trying to purport that you understand that thing. You are concocting hogwash. It’s not your fault, of course. Let me explain -
Women are the limiting factor in reproduction. This limiting factor will abide by what? Why, Intersexual selection, of course!
This translates to women striving to become as desirable as possible. Which means that it is ingrained in a woman to present herself as a sexually desirable entity. This dictates her worth.
When women are showing their bodies, they are doing so precisely for the aforementioned reason. They are desirable specimens, and by exuding their physical attractiveness, they seek fulfilment.
Why do you think they put on ornaments and decorations upon themselves? Lipstick, make-up, mascara (and other things that I do not know about)?
Decoration is for objects. If women decorate themselves, that makes them __?
Nevertheless If, and only if, they are forced to do so, without they own free will, it is unacceptable. However, when they do so out of their own free will, they are exercising their right! Who are you to condemn them?
Secondly, tell me, what other way are you to depict physical beauty in?
How else would you represent physical beauty of a human, if not through human physical body parts?
How else would you exhibit human sexuality, if not through sex? i.e Man penetrating woman – sexual intercourse?
In a burkha?
Are you out of your mind?
No, it is through their bodies. Just like they already want to do themselves. There is not a single testimony that corroborates your assertion, apart from retarded feminist abstract notions. It’s all in their heads.
Like I mentioned, please rid yourself from feminist delusion. Feminist stupidity is ruining our society.
Me: From your perspective, we should just all be animals, then, and forsake progress of any kind. If that’s how you define humanity, then I have nothing to say.
[To be continued]
